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Dale, as a fellow Tiger fan, you really have to stop being so negative. This reply relates not just to this post but to the plethora of recent missives by you.
The Tigers don't have a God given right to win a WS, and they've won 4 division titles in a row.
Next year will be an adventure, this has been one of the best periods to be a Tigers fan, in Cabrera and Verlander we've been blessed by among the best hitters and pitchers in franchise history, just enjoy the ride and that includes 2016.
Thanks for the considered response. Option c is just too convenient I'm afraid.
We all know who we are talking about here, and its unfortunate that the two players involved (Bonds and Clemens) were so talented that they would have walked into the HOF without Peds but now must be used as an example to others and never allowed in.
Agreed he should be in (as should Lou Whitaker and Bill Freehan, but they played for Detroit).
Anyone who advocates the inclusion of a baseball player in the HOF who used peds is condoning the use of peds. It really is that simple and I think the BP writers who advocate that position need to have the courage of their convictions and come out and publically acknowledge this.
Don't hide behind weasel words and comments like "I don't care if they took peds,".
If you vote for Bonds you are saying "Baseball players should take peds if it will improve their performance".
If that's what you really feel then it's time to be honest and admit it.
No, the reply suggested that the replier failed to grasp that it was an analogy. I think your comment singles you out as someone with the inability or lack of intelligence to realise that. If so I'd like to stop corresponding with you. Life is too short to waste time on idiots :)
Hi Roarke, it was just meant as an anology. I don't have overly strong views on this but I was just pointing out what I perceived to be a falicious argument by the original poster.
The penalties for ped use are so ridiculously lenient that having your whole career besmirched and being precluded from the recognition of being voted into the HOF is the only effective deterrent.
You don't let a convicted criminal off because there must be lots of other people who have done the same thing, but they haven't been arrested and found guilty.
As each day passes I believe more and more that Scherzer will sign with Detroit. Simon is insurance and can easily slip into a long relief role in the bullpen if Max does come back.
It also enables Dombrowski to present a complete rotation to Boras to take away some leverage from their negotiationing position.
Despite Boras' church jumble sale comment, I believe Boras will phone Mike Illitch if Max receives an acceptable offer from elsewhere.
Please stop talking about Randy Smith, i had forgotten about him. Thank god Gonzalez did turn that contract down.
It's just a shame Scherzer betrayed Mr Illitch, I said back in March that they should have him pitch 300 innings, and they didn't.
If you see the press conference yesterday with DD, Martinez and Mr Illitch, the deal was never in doubt. Mike Illitch apparently put his arm around Victor after the last game and said "don't worry we'll look after you". So he got 4 years and the upper end of the annual amount he was looking for, and the owner had already told him a month ago it was going to happen.
The Tigers are a classy organisation.
Dale, Avila and Iglesias aren't that bad, especially in this time of suppressed offence. They are certainly not automatic outs. And with Gose/Davis and Iglesias in the lineup the baserunning improves.
Whilst I agree with the premise of the article, it still remains that Boston deserved their WS because as a team they performed well for 6 months as oppposrd to 6 games.
If you santé an expanded playoffs, expansion thé number of divisions. 2nd place teams should qualify. Thé réservés champions are Baltimore and St Louis.
I'm off to bed so getting my rebuttal in first. Outfielders are meant to catch line drives hit to them. Just because you overrun it and fall over a 5 foot wall doesn't excuse you from that obligation.
Should have been called an error and no home run for Ortiz.
Exhibit A as to why Torrii should retire.
You need an edit function for us smartphone users. That should be "we take catches bare handed with 2 hands.
Watch it again on YouTube Matt, and look at Benoit's face when the camera cuts to him straight after, Benoit's expression is "why didn't he catch it?"
I've played cricket to the equivalent level of AAA in the UK and we care hand catches 2 handed. That would have been a routine 2 handed catch on the boundary.
Yes the one that went over the 5 foot wall! We're not talking about an 8.foot wall here. As line drive that he over-ran without leaving his feet.
In any other ballpark, when a fielder misjudged a line drive like that its an error. In any other ballpark it's an error and the batter ends up at 2nd or 3rd.
The irony is, Torrii Hunter can to Detroit to win the world series and he personally made the biggest single error in stopping them winning it in 2013.
Torrii Hunters missed catch in the ALCS was a huge slice of luck. He should have caught it and if he had its pretty certain the Tigers go up against the Cardinals.
Earlweaver, I'm English and I have to say, that is the most amusing post I have ever read on baseball prospectus. Who said satire is dead. This comment will probably be voted inappropriate by the membership mafia but you've actually beautifully lampooned the arguments of the playoffs are fun brigade. Well done!
Yes but since the advent of 2 wild card teams, winning the division is clearly better than getting the wildcard (100% chance of being in the ALDS as opposed to circa 50%).
AL and NL 16 teams each comprising of 4 divisions of 4 teams. A given team plays the other 3 teams in your division 14 times and the other 12 teams in your league 10 times equals 162 games. No inter-league games. That's balanced enough.
Ok, the term pennant race now is now a divisional race ys, but the term has always been used to refer to 2 (or i suppose more) teams battling it out down to the wire over the 162 game schedule. The point remains that both teams were in these races over the final portion of the season and both came up short. I would say winning a head to head race over the final few months of the season is a better indicator of the abilities of the team that a 5 or 7 game series.
Unfortunately we are denied the opportunity of the best teams from the NL and AL playing each other. No one has mentioned wanting to do away with the World Series.
Worse that that we are seeing a World Series between 2 clubs who lost penant races.
I'll still enjoy the series but i'd rather it were different. I'm happy with an expanded playoffs between division winners, it's the whole concept of wild card teams that is a step too far.
If you want an expanded playoffs wouldn't 16 teams in each league, 4 4 team divisions be a better system that having a wildcard?
I would agree, it's a question of balance. I've never liked the concept of the wildcard. It's always galling when a team that finishes 2nd in it's division is crowned the champion. This year the WS is between 2 teams who were not even the best team in their divison over 162 games.
Would any of the proponents of the status quo prefer the following:
Expand to 32 teams
No regular season.
32 team knockout tournament.
7 game series 9or maybe 9 or 11
You can't just take out a team's record against one team and then assess them against the remainder. The Royals may have just played badly against anyone on those nights and lost the majority anyway.
To clarify, I mean next year's bullpen will be Nathan, Alburqurque, Rondon (hopefully) plus 8 others. Huge challenge God Dave Dombrowski.
Watching the game during the bottom of the 7th I was pleading with Ausmus to keep Sanchez in, and stated that if he was taken out Detroit would lose. I hated to be proved right.
It will be interesting to see if Aysmus survives. I hope he doesn't, when a mistake is made you have to walk away.
The Tigers bullpen has been bad for years but Nathan, Joba and Soria are all new faces.
Next year, Nathan, Alburqurque, Rondon? Joba and Soria gone - what a terrible trade that has been.
Because it gives Price an extra days rest above his normal 4 days after his high stress start in game 162 on Sunday, and the game 2 and game 3 starter both only pitch one game. Also if Verlander pitched game 3 his long interval between starts would be a day longer.
Actually Fister has been almost as much a groundball pitcher the past 2 years as Porcello.
For that to have been the case, Washington and the other 28 teams would've had to have known it as well, as no one offered more.
Interesting to see how thus one pans out....
Is anyone else expecting a Scherzer contract extention in Detroit by the weekend?
It's the playoffs, the unpalatable fact is to really decide who the best was would take about a 999 game series, not 7, something that clearly can never happen.
The Red Sox won a tight series, good luck to them.
I didn't think Sanchez pitched that badly, made a couple of mistakes and the Seth Smith homer was heavily wind assisted.
That may depend on Cabrera's ability to play 3b
I agree with the main thrust of the article. The best way to deal with it is to increase the penalties to such a degree that players are dis-incentivised from using peds.
Announce that from some point in the future any player involved in a systematic doping program will be banned for life, this will prevent players getting punished for inadvertently taking a "supplement" but punish the pre-meditated use of peds.
This wouldn't be applied retrospectively so any player knowingly risking their career would have no one to blame but themselves.
Infante will be back soon, a week maybe two.
No panic as the rest of the rotation is pitching so well and they are 3 games up. His struggles are puzzling but all players struggle from time to time.
Both Verlander and Leyland have been frank about his performance throughout this and have not been results orientated - when he's had good results they've stated that he didn't throw the ball well which gives creedence to the encouraging noises from last night. The home run and the double by Flowers were just mistake pitches.
He just needs to get back on track by 1 October.
"and there are loads of mediocre to poor players on the suspended list for whom PEDs did not obviously enhance their performance"
But how bad would they have been if they hadn't taken PED's?
If we can't quantify the benefits of PED's then we also can't say that taking PED's didn't help these guys because we can never know how bad they would have been if they were clean.
You can't have it both ways.
Which begs the question - Why have so many players taken them?
I'd love for the Pirates to win this year and certainly don't begrudge them coverage by BP but by far the biggest story last night was Rick Porcello and more strong evidence that he is maturing into a top starter at 24 rather than a 36 year old enjoying an Indian summer.
His problems with fastball command started off the start before where he walked 5.
He's clearly aware of the issue from his postgame interview.
As someone who lived through every pitch of the blown saves in the postseason (especially the Yankees one - they were,'t just any old blown save's they were meltdowns) he did look appreciably better last night. Time will tell of course.
if he is on a $2m guaranteed plus incentives contract then the downside risk is much lower than if the Tigers had resigned him last autumn to a much bigger deal.
What's changed with Valverde is that he demonstarted to scouts that he was throwing much better than last year, which would have changed the Tigers opinion that perhaps he was done.
With regard to Valverde, the story is that he's throwing the ball better than last year (was he hiding an injury to get to pitch in the World series?).
Presuambly Dombrowski didn't have the budget to sign both a right fielder and a closer.
One man's botched situation is another man's flexible thinking.
Torii then plays spolier and gets 2 bb in 10 pa's the last few days - nice article though.
Agreed an interesting comparison would be with Cricket where it is unheard of to a batsman to retaliate against a bowler who is (at times) deliberately aiming at their head.
When hit, which is common at least on the body, the 'done thing' is to pretend to the bowler that he has neither hurt or bothered you - in fact inactivity is the 'macho response'
When hit it's not difficult to try to conceal that fact.
Great post and thanks for sharing that memory. Tigers are lucky having a great player dedicate his career to them, let's hope he stays healthy, ends up in the Hall and wins a ring (or two) as well.
Good points but Verlander had already said that if his contract ticked down to one year to go he would then test free agency so the decision was to either sign him now or compete in 2 years as a free agent.
I don't think any Tigers fan regrets this, the risk may be too great but Verlander is a huge part if the franchise and nobody wanted him to leave.
I may be opening a small can of worms here but was Cabrera's home run off Chris Perez on Sunday 5th August more valuable than a solo shot in a 8 - 0 blowout?
The Warp formula values them the same.
Yes, don't forget that position players accumulate defensive warp as well as offensive, and it's quite often two way players that score highest.
Simple warp is too simplistic, for one reason is the concept of high leverage and low leverage innings, a stopper like Verlander who goes out and almost always gives his team a great chance to win is a valuable player. The fact that a whole team rides the back of a player like that can never be quantified in a stat.
This raises another interesting point though, pitchers in the current game just can't be in the games enough to accumulate as much WARP as position players, maybe in the old days with 4 man rotations and 300+ IP they could. This is reflected in the fact that position players are by and large paid more.
So, as it stands, the reason that pitchers should not win the MVP is not because they have the Cy Young but rather just because it's very very hard for them to be as valuable to their teams.
That's completely fine, just very bored at all the continuing comments about Trout and the MVP this offseason and in contrast no mention if the Cy Young.
Interesting article, agree that baserunning is undervalued.
"The last thing I want to do is rehash the American League MVP debate. There is a long list of sharp objects I’d fit into my cornea before doing that. So I’m not doing that, I promise."
Can we have an article about Verlander being unfairly denied a 2nd consecutive Cy Young. The ratio between Verlander and Price in Warp (4.7 vs 3.1) is higher than that between Trout and Cabrera (9.1 vs 6.1) so he was more "wronged".
Although how many double plays will he hit into batting behind Cabrera/Fielder/Martinex?
Yes he's coming back from serious surgery and is very much a novelty type pitcher, nasty stuff, fragile, erratic command....that fits best in a flexible middle relief role right now.
I'd guess they want to see a full season from Alburquerque and see what he produces then take it from there.
I daresay ego's have to be stroked with that decision, i'm sure he expects to hit 2nd so will be given a shot at it, at least initially.
I agree i'd rather have Dirks hit there, i'm sure he won't replicate his 2012 numbers but he fits well there being left handed etc
I seem to remember he broke his ankle in the AFL then was the starting opening day 2b in Detroit before being send down then traded the following year - i don't recall the Tigers moving him.
By demonstrating durability and the ability to pitch alot of innings/go deep in games occasionally to marry to that stuff?
Would the injury concerns have much of an impact? I would guess that his injury record is good, though they are very recent and may impact 2013.
Agreed and hypothetically imagine if the Tigers had traded verlander or Scherzer for prospects last July the list would be better still.
As they're a perenial contender in a weak division they've been sapped rather than boosted by their trading activity.
Isn't a big reason that the Tigers haven't traded a high value player for prosects for a long time?
Yes, agreed and thanks to the handful of members who were sympathetic in the face of the storm of criticism ;-)
In terms if my length of service, check my membership number, I've been here a long long time...... peace.
It appears not Richard - if anyone who holds a view that dissents from the majority view should they be silenced or their subscription cancelled.
I was challenged by numerous members and staff and asked to both defend my statements and to offer proof to support them - partly why i posted so often.
Feelings were running high and I'll admit I was one of several who got a bit carried away - lessons have been learnt.
However, it is more than worrying if the answer to anyone holding a dissenting view is to label them as "unreasonable" and to propose they are silenced.
I was just querying a point with the author - the rate of increase for SS is higher, it's the amount in percentage points that is the same.
ps I was informed that this column had been locked - but if people want to re-open things by attacking me again I will defend myself.
I'd much rather we let this lie and move on.
Did you really spend your time counting my posts in this column? Were there really 60 posts?
Are you suggesting there should be an upper limit on the number of posts that are allowed? And if so, how low would you set the bar?
You should be so lucky but please pay twice anyway.
I don't mind being insulted by idiots like you, it's being insulted by paid BP staffers that i found annoying.
Judging from the twitter feeds many of the commentators that are pro ped's don't matter are friends of the staffers!
Oh the poor children!
I understand your predicament but I am not going to drop this @veryannoyed!
Hi Jason, as you seem to be monitoring this thread now, I'd like an ifficial BP response to the insulting twitter feed I've just posted please.
But a remarkably high proportion of people here. What's most galling is that dissenting views are ridiculed and stamped down so everyone can revert to that happy state where we all agree.
What was it?
4 legs good, 2 legs bad.
4 legs good, 2 legs bad....
Excellent, wish I was as eloquent as you!
You think, I'll probably be 'banned' for being the victim of puerile little in jokes by the staffers.
why don't you all tweet each other to all hit "-" so this gets hidden.......
Guys, insulting your paying customers is never a good idea, even if you think they deserve it.
google Gerald Ratner
You should be ashamed - or more discret ;-)
Usn't it comforting to know that to while away the team the BP staffers like making snide comments about their subscribers via twitter
Paul Sporer @sporer
What is the record for most negative votes in a @baseballpro discussion thread, @ben_lindbergh @JHamrahi? I think "andrews" is Bondsing it.
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7h Joe Hamrahi @JHamrahi
@sporer @baseballpro @ben_lindbergh Ha! I'm avoiding the comments for a while
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7h Bryan @bgrosnick
@sporer @baseballpro @ben_lindbergh @JHamrahi If he's "Bondsing" then I have to assume he's using some sort of performance-enhancing drug.
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FavoritedFavorite 7h Paul Sporer @sporer
@bgrosnick @baseballpro @ben_lindbergh @JHamrahi BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN??????
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7h Joe Hamrahi @JHamrahi
@sporer I know! I hope my son hasn't read the article yet! I may have to bring him to therapy!
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7h Paul Sporer @sporer
@JHamrahi LOL. You have a long road ahead. Bc it's not you and your wife raising him, it's the decisions of baseball players.
No he shouldn't get in ever.
You do quite a lot of running playing baseball you know ;-)
Thank you Eliyahu, ped's tarnish any sport because you don't know to what extent the achievements are due to pure talent or the drugs. Of course it can never be scientifically proven so all you are left with is doubt and rancour and a sour taste.
Maybe baseball needs to send a lesson to future generations by making an example of this generation, for the long time health if the game. Lets say we do not accept doping and we do not condone it.
Exactly, well said.
Colin, with regard to your comparison between SS and DH. Didn't HRs by SS's increase by over 50% and DH's by under 25% so the increase by the SS's was actually double that if the DH's!
Well thank god he didn't get in, I hope he never does.
Lol we Europeans don't really get American football either, love commercial breaks, but hey we're just cheese eating surrender monkeys :-)
The tragedy with bonds is he was such a brilliant player he didn't need to do it.
Trust me ped's are an insidious cancer eating away at a sport. Cycling is now fun to watch again for the first time since the realisation that epo was rampant in the late 90s
Well the times up the big alpine climbs was much slower than a few years ago, like 10 per cent slower. You can use mathematical formulae based on the riders weight and him time up certain climbs to basically indicate where a guy is doping. Greg LeMondbis a big proponent if it.
You mean rout out dopers?
What I find amazing us that lance Armstrong is banned for life from any firm of athletic competition, has all of his titles stripped from him, will quite possibly go to prison and will soon be bankrupt having to pay back 10 to 30 million dollars whilst........
Barry bonds should be feted as a great athlete by being voted into the HOF.
Have you ever taken amphetamines?
Caffeine was a banned substance until recently I believe. You can't seriously be suggesting that all ped's affect performance to the same degree????
Epo has a huge impact for example.
Great post! - you should audition here.
No i'm saying that if the perception exists that it helps and the perception exists that Barry Bonds took steriods and then Barry Bonds is voted into the HOF on the 1st ballot then it's not inconceivable that a person may think - I'm going to take steroids - it helped Barry Bonds and he's in the HOF.
It's not that difficult surely, Jesus wept!
I'm saying that it can have a significant effect along with many other influences on a young person. Of course i dont mean it's the ONLY thing that has an effect - tghis is getting silly.
Do i really have to defend the principle of role models?
That's cool - i must have been mistaken. I had assumed that it was accepted that steroid use in the 90/00's increased home run power amongst certain ballplayers - my bad
No but an athlete using them over a sustained period because HE believes them to aid his performance does.
If you thing about it all that matters to that young ballplayer is the perception that it improves performance (whether ot not it does)will make him more likely to do it - he won't be reading up on scientific studies - he'll just think it helped bonds hit 73 hr's and they still let him in the HOF on his first ballot.
I simply asked for some evidence and proof of the adverse health effects you seem so certain of. Legitimate evidence of them, of course.
Is taking ped's wrong?
I was just incredulous at having to present evidence of something that is so widely accepted as beyond question.
Shall we move on to "Do cigarettes cause cancer?"
au contraire - please see below
No - inclusion in the hall is based on performance, certain ped's affect performance more than others.
I give up lol
The world is flat you know - prove me it isn't or is the sample size of 1 too small.
Oh if only the world could be viewed simply in black and white, without those pesky shades of grey ;-)
But those players are not on the HOF ballot. I'm confused by your point?
Are you saying in a roundabout way the steroids had no positive impact on performance?
Where have i defended that behaviour?
Can i post links here?
2 points - for these athlete's often the most important thing is their legacy - and being in th eHOF is essential to that.
Also for all that wealth, remember it can be lost as well and you can end up in prison - see Lance Armstrong.
If an athlete shows genuine contritution and plays an active part in discoutraging the future use of ped's - well that may have a bearing...
so in the alice in wonderland world of BP there are no adverse health affects to injecting steroids HGH and other artificial stuff into your body.
Interesting you bring up HGH becuase numerous studies link this to cancer.
so saying that "cheating by taking ped's is wrong" sucks does it?
Do you really mean that?
I respect your argument, i'm just concerned that it's being brushed under the carpet and enshrining a notorious and blatent steroid user sends the message:
"It's ok even if you get caught, because people will just remember all those moon shot home runs you hit, or your ability to throw hard for longer completely against the previously accepted limits of the human body...that's the history of game, it was great and well, you know,, just do it!......"
I'm talking about athlete's being role models - another poster started talking about raising your kids.
Because by allowing them in it indirectly "legitimizes" the use of deliberately using banned substances to gain an unfair advantage over their peers.
And what about the clean athletes who never make it to the show because their didn't juice?
What about them?
what's the government got to do with it lol?
oh come on you're seriously arguing that their is no evidence that steroid use affected home run hitting in baseball?
... you are aren't you, admit it ;-)
It's concerned with the morality of using ped's to dramatically enhance performance, and thus fame, wealth, etc
That would be an ethical question for the doctors and surgeons involved.
Steroid use is damaging to healt and brings no benefits - that's incontestable.
That's a whole differenr debate - all i would say is you can't compare 'character flaws' and their consequences from a carefully planned, pre-meditated and ongoing process of cheating to give yourself an advantage on the field.
And you're dodging the most important point which is the negative impacts on health of using steroids.
amphetamines don't change or enhance your psysiology, they just heighten mental awareness (positive) energy levels (usually positive) but can impair decision making (negative).
So their are pros and cons - it's safe to say that amphetamine use didn't drastically affect performance.
We all know what steroids did to baseball in the 'roid era.
I find the fact that this statement is "deemed inappropriate" hilarious lol
Are you a believer in Lance as well?
You surely can't discuss whether the high profile people up for nomination this year belong in th ehall without considering it can you?
"sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"
Again it's similiar to cycling - eop and blood manipulation had such a huge impact on performance - as did steroid use in baseball that their impact is distinct from things like amphetamines which had a marginal impact - and in some cases negative impact - on performance.
The initial statement was intentionally too dogmatic but was meant to start debate - which it is doing :-)
So how sports stars behave has no impact on younsters - that's quite a statement?
It's really germaine to discuss this at the moment with the fall of Lance Armstrong - it is hard to distinguish between different types of cheating but my focus on ped's is because of the very real health implications from their use.
You can't get cancer from using a corked bat which for me is more 'angle-shooting'.
We have to resist the escalation towards kids damaging their health in order to make it in professional sports.
Also what about all the clean ballplayers who never made it to the 'sgow' because their peers were juicing up?
The issue is you have to consider the message you are giving to youngsters.
By allowing a ped user in you are effectively condoning it in that youngsters eyes.
No one who has admitted to using or been found to be using ped's should be in the Hall of Fame.
Anyone in the Hall who ie revealed as a user should be immediately thrown out.
-2? Oh we'll, you're right don't think, just hit the minus button without commenting.
No, comment, rebut, argue your point. I'll listen, that way we can all learn.
Verlander should also have won the Cy Young with Sherzer second. When was the last time a team won the MVP and the Cy Young for two consecutive years? Has it ever happened?
Fuck it, no ones going to comment so what the hell. If you swear in a vacuum does anyone hear you?
Fascinating that I've made posts this morning advocating both pro and anti statistical sentiments and the same 'site member' has voted all of them -1 lol
The 2nd best pitcher in the AL statistically didn't garner a single Cy Young vote - not one.
No that is appalling!
A much bigger statistical injustice is that Justin Verlander did not win the Cy Young - though there's been much less discussion of this.
Cerlander had a WARP of 4.8. 2nd in the AL is fellow Tiger Max Scherzer with 3.8. Detroit had the 2 best pitchers in the American league and 2 of the top 3 in baseball! statistically.
David Price was 6th in the American league.
If this interaction could be measured a small but non-zero amount of WARP would be transferred from Trout to Hunter - say 0.2 WARP.
There would be hundreds of such transfers between players in a team.
Just because something can't be measured doesn't mean it has no impact - 50 years ago would it have been correct to cmpletely ignore a players defense (other than error %)because it wasn't measured statistically?
The BBWAA writers form an opinion by trying to synthisize all of these factors in the way humans make judgements every day of their life - just making the case why it's not as simple as looking up WARP in a chart.
Of course, this year Trout was clearly better - so much so that he probably still was the MVP, this is more a general point about player valuation.
My opening gambit. Players aren't commodities or inanimate computer alorithms that can be assessed in a vacuum.
If we all agree that WARP as defined by BP is the ultimate judge of the value of a players contribution during a year there would be no need for people to vote on MVP awards - we'd simply look at a list by clicking on the statistics section at the top of this spreadsheet.
An anecdotal example. Mike Trout has credited Torii Hunter with helping him during he great season. This clearly can't be measured but this contribution adds a (modest) but positive 'value' to Torrii Hunter's value during the year. If Mike Trout was an entity that operated purely in a vacuum he has basically admitted that his value as defined by WARP would probably have been (slightly) lower than it was had Torri Hunter not interacted with him.
This is why we have votes. It's very frustrating that these things can't be measured but we are dealing with human beings not commodities.
the kneejerk response will probably be to slate this comment but i'd urge viewers to think about it's exact meaning before jumping for the '-' icon.
Mike Trout was statistiacally the most valuble player, but was Mike Trout the most valuble player? Discuss.
Exactly, it's only 'good' if he lives through the length of the contract to keep bankrolling it, or he puts the cash in trust lol
I don't think they'd trade Upton for Porcello. I just have this feeling that Illitch is going to go on a crazy spending spree this year.
I'd love it if Mr I coughed up another $200m for Josh Hamilton to play left field as well - you saw it here first.
You can't take it with you ;-)
I love looking up these old Tiger trades. Seriously why does any GM deal with Dave Dombrowski. He owns them all every single time.
Excellent analysis. Mike illitch wants to win a WS. If he spends a bit more of his kids inheritance in trying to do so so be it!
Re the swings and misses, the weather was quite cool at 53 degrees - do baseball deviate less in cool weather?
The entire article is about the New York Yankees?
How long have you subscribed Richard?
I'm not talking about the Tigers - just pricking the balloon that is this over inflating of the Angels performance (in isolation) that permeates several posts here.
Hatred's far too strong a word, it's more a persistent negative slant. Until JV upped his game a couple of years ago every Tigers article was slightly negative.
BP always been down on the Tigers for some reason - it's deep rooted and institionalised because despite the staff turnover it's been going on for at leat 10 years.
sorry wrong post
Reading comments like this you'd be forgiven for thinking the Angels won over a hundred games and had the misfortune to be in the same division as a powerhouse club - then you check the standings are see they won........89 games......
On reflection, none of us know who should win the MVP because we haven't spent the whole season in locker rooms and talking to the players.
I've never said he should win the MVP - please point out where i have?
My only point is that highest WARP does not necessarily equal MVP.
Does this dignigify a response..... no, i don't think it does
It's because it hasn't happened for so long, unlike the names you cited. It's not right or logical but thank god baseball still has a bit of the old tradition intact, it's one if the reasons it's so great.
And thank god we can still have these discussions, otherwise there would be no need for awards - you'd just need to look at the WAR listings at the end of the season.
Thanks, great post
Good points but lets cut to the chase, who cares about the MVP? People will have forgotten in a year ir two - now the Triple Crown! That's a completely different thing.
How did they lose when they had the best player in the history of baseball manning centre field?
Josh the most important thing in the regular season is to win your division
Who cares about winning the MVP award, 'winning' a triple crown is 100 times more important and 100 times more memorable than a common and garden MVP award that 2 guys win every year!
Trout has a 27 to 1 lead then ;-)
I presume the BP staffers are eligible to vote?
As an aside - who do people think will win the MVP?. I really have no idea.
Exactly, you have to rely on anecdotel evidence - which i'm sure the baseball writers will.
It will be interesting to see who does win the award. Measuring an individuals performance is of course very important but it shouldn't be the sole criteria to who wins an award in a given year.
A team only has to beat what is put in front of it. The Tigers were in a penant race and won. I know the cult of personality has long been overstated but that doesn't mean it should be ignored completely - just because it's impossible to measure a a metric.
No surprise Trout has 27 first place votes. On the elements that can be measured he has performed the best.
However just because something can't be measured it doesn't mean it is irrelevant. The baseball writers in some cases will have access to the clubhouses of the teams and will know which players have been a driving force in helping their team win and helping their teammates perform.
These factors can't be measured by a metric. Lets see how the baseball writers vote.
There's no doubt that Trout has been the most valuble player.
There's also no doubt that Cabrera would be a deserving winner of the MVP award.
These two statements are not contradictory.
.... So your case that Detroit are bad at developing pitchers essentially rests on Rick Porcello, a pitcher who has had to do his 'developing' while pitching to major league hitters.
With regard to Bonderman, you fail to mention that at the All-star break in 2007 he was 10 - 1 with an era about 3 and with dominant pheripherals ( i can't remember gis WARP, PERA etc).
Then he hurt his arm.......
Then he got the blood clot.....
Nothing to do with the Tigers ability to develop pitchers.
Also, if Andrew Miller didn't develop surely that's down to Florida?
•0pposing not loosing - damn smartphones
TRUE! Do you have a stat for TAV excluding loosing pitchers and dh's?
Verlander is the best. Aside from his ability, durability is the most underrated quality. Just because we're wary of counting stats, it doesn't mean rate stats are the holy grail, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
With most teams the top 4 talents under 25 would still be in the minors and the system wouldn't be looking so bare.
I I think they'll give him a go at 3rd but if he struggles they can then dh him. That way it won't cause a problem if he can't cut it and then has to dh.
They can always start Inge and Santiago when porcello pitches.
He'll only play 3rd if his defence is passable. If not he won't, remember how quickly he was moved from there in 2008.
Remember Randy Smith lol
Thank god the Tigers didn't give that huge contract to Juan Gonzales, they offered it to him and he turned it down :-)
Last year Fielder starting 159 games at 1b and Cabrera 152.
Why not have both sharing 1b/DH duties in 2012 which presumably will help both stay fresher than they were in 2011. Cabrera can also try a few games at 3rd and the outfield in preparation for Martinez returning.
When deals "make no sense" generally they know things we don't.
When the public pronouncements don't really add up it's because they aren't at liberty to give us the real reason.
Also, just because the media bang on about it, it doesn't mean character is unimportant, and Granderson is a 24 caret good egg.
Love the trade from the Tigers perspective too.
I also don't get the bit about this being a bad trade because the Tigers have lots of bad contracts?
This is a very good trade for the Tigers with the potential to be a great one, Christina Karl explained why far better than i can. A good trade can help all parties, but there's always something satisfying about declaring a winner and out of the blocks it has to be the Tigers.
I was really sad when it was announced because Granderson is possibly my faviurite Tiger, but that's just sentimenalism and it didn't last long.
I remember the '87 Tigers and there thrilling down to the wire comeback in the division race with the Blue Jays.
they entered the ALDS against, yes the Twins, a spent force and went out in 5.
Thanks for that Ray, yes I wasn't aware of the other articles so I am guilty of treating this article in a bubble, apologies for that.
Ray, I've just seen this one - seriously why not let Joe respond - I've already qualified my statement in my 2nd reply to Joe and basically retracted it.
I'm new to posting here - though have been a member for years - so if there is a history of this I'm not responsible for that.
ps so you agree that a 34/4 K/BB ratio is merely solid then ;-)
"Leyland may have lifted Rick Porcello too soon, after the right-hander issued a homer and a walk with two outs in the sixth. Porcello had thrown just 92 pitches and was in complete control through the first 86. Not allowing him to face Delmon Young, who he’d handled, set the events in motion that may have cost him the game. Leyland needed more outs from his starter."
This is the only thing that could be construed as "praise" and it's in the context of criticizing Leyland decision - not explicit praise of Porcello. I think his performance given that he is a 20 year old rookie deserved some explict mention - it's not me who needs some reading comprehension.
As a paying subscriber to this site I feel entitled to offer my opinions and feedback - clearly this is only ok if it is positive otherwise the internet thought police seem to feel it is their job to jump on and dissenting voices.
:-) Wins against replacement park (WARP) - good ridance!
Aside from being slightly bemused by the fact that 2 instances are characterized by you as "constant" I'm puzzled as to why you felt the need to wade into my question to the author in this fashion? I have no desire to engage in a flame war with you.
Once again just focussing on the negative.
Quick question - were you impressed by Rick Porcello and, if yes, why not explicitly mention it?
Silver lining for the Tigers is that Porcello can now be shut down before he's damaged.
My venting is stored up from a whole season when I can't remember reading an article of the great strides forward Verlander's he's made this year, or a positive article about the Tigers for that matter. Who would have thought he would finish on 269 k's?
I'm not really singling you out and I apologise for you taking a season frustration due to one throwaway comment (the solid peripherals one.
How good would his numbers be if leyland didn't continually leave him in games too long - last night was another example - I suspect he'd be a Cy Young frontrunner with most of the other managers.
I just think you don't like the Tigers and Justin Verlander.
"he's given up four runs or more in three of his last four starts, but his peripherals are solid"
A 34-4 K/BB ratio in those last 4 starts (ok 34 hits in 29.1 innings but that's not really peripherals is it) - if that's merely solid i guess you need to be Bob Gibson to be merely good.